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LarsD.
Posts: 19
Hello everybody,
I am currently planning to convert my Saitek throttles and would like to motorize the throttle axis and the spoiler axis. From the mechanical side, everything has already been planned accordingly, and suitable servomotors have already been ordered. Now I'm looking for offsets to be able to control the 3 servos. Are there corresponding offsets in Mobiflight?

Best regards
Lars
2020-04-12 00:37
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pizman82
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From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 3527
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Technical YES
Speedbrake and also Throttle Engine 1,2 ( and optional 3,4 for B747) are available and fully compatible.
Simply search FSUIPC Standard Offsets for that ( Mostly Axis Offsets)

******

Whatever.... Its not so easy as it seems.

The problematic part is the splitting between Input and Output.

If your Servo is moving the Throttle ( controlled by Mobiflight) then its technical not possible to move the Throttles by hand. Cheap Servos get broke imediatly if you move them aslong they are powered. So the big Challenge is to build a mechanic ( like a slip Clutch) and/or a software logic when Servo should be active or Not.

Its no problem to Controll throttle by Servo and Mobiflight for example aslong AT is active.... But you can NOT handle the throttles yourself aslong you not disable AT already. ( For example to do a rejectted takeoff or to set Throttle to "Hold" while VS Descent.
Same with Speedbrakes.... You can build a System that Brakes Leaver is controlled by Servo if you press a Button ( for example combined with the ARMED Position) ..... But aslong this is active you can NOT move the leaver by hand ( for example to give drag in final approach)

In easy words.... Aslong Servo is ACTIVE ..... Use by Hand is not possible without a advanced logic and/or mechanic !
Good Luck !
2020-04-12 01:54
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LarsD.
Posts: 19
Hey
Thank you for your prompt reply.
I didn't consider the problem with the motors. I have a few more questions on the subject, maybe you can help me.
Let's start with the throttles.
Here I see 2 options: either I install (as you suggested) slip clutches or I deactivate the A / T before every manual movement.
I have no experience with slip clutches. If I understand the principle correctly, it is a coupling with a force-fitting connection that transmits forces up to a certain force. If the preset force is exceeded, the clutch "opens". Is that roughly correct?
That would mean that I would have to install appropriately adjusted slip clutches. How do I find out how strong they have to be? And how do I ensure with this variant that the servo returns to the starting position after manual intervention? Or is that not necessary?
If I use the second option, i.e. to switch off the A / T before every manual movement, would it have to work without further technology, since the servos are not in operation then?
Let's continue with the Speedbrake.
The only thing I would like to have is that the Speed ​​Brake Lever automatically extends after the touchdown. I don't need more functions (e.g. that the extended speed brakes automatically retract when the throttle is advanced). Can this be programmed so that only the auto ground spoilers are actually driven after the touchdown? Then it shouldn't be a problem anymore, since the servo is only briefly energized once when the spoiler extends after touchdown.
Or is it also a problem if servos are cranked when they are not under power and are therefore switched off?
I have one last question:
would someone be willing to help me with programming if it goes beyond the standard settings? So I try to familiarize myself with the topic of programming, I find it very difficult.

Best regards
Lars
2020-04-12 13:45
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pizman82
Moderator
From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 3527
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Hin Again
Badly here i can not help.... I not build mechanics myself. I also have no CNC Machine and my basic constructing Skills are verry poor.
So things like a clutch are out of my personal knowledge.

About moving Servos.... Important is.... the Servo must be unpowerd in the moment we move it ( cause otherwise it would work against our hand power ) this can be done temporary for example by a Relais.... As i know most of Servos can handle "manual override" of cogwheel mechanic. But sure.... If we use cheap 1$ mini Servos and we move the Throttle verry quickly pretty sure the mechanic is broke..... Otherwise a high qualitiy servo ( maby with metal gears) pretty sure have no problem and can not destreyed so fast.

About your Speedbrake Question.

Mibiflight can simply act in case of a condition.... It can NOT work as a timer.
So Programming is finaly no big deal.... All you need is to define a clear situation and result....

For example we can say Speedbrake Leaver should be moved if Aircraft is on Ground ( already touchdown) AND Virtual leafer is extended.... BUT we can not say " Hold this Position for 4 Seconds and then do xy" ..... Otherwise it will be again possible to say.... IF Speed is slow down and reach 80kts then turn back leaver to OFF Position by the Motor.
So the key is always the posibility to read all Data to define the condition !
Good Luck !
2020-04-12 19:22
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LarsD.
Posts: 19
iconQuote:

For example we can say Speedbrake Leaver should be moved if Aircraft is on Ground ( already touchdown) AND Virtual leafer is extended



Perfect, that's EXACTLY the event I want to have. :) The lever should only extend once, the servo has nothing more to do. How exactly is that programmed? Is this also part of the list of FSUIPC commands?
And which of the many possibilities of the engine events are the right ones for the throttle servos?
Thanks alot for your help. :)

Best regards
Lars
2020-04-13 02:12
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pizman82
Moderator
From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 3527
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This can not be awnserd in some easy words.

At first you must know what AddOn Aircraft is in use..... Do your aircraft for example give a a clear Offset that is "1" if mechanic must be moving the speedbrake handle and 0 if not..... Then all is fine already.... If not do your AddOn give you a Offset that tell us if Speadbrake is armed or not ? Or maby do your aircraft use the standard FSUIPC Offsets instead of own data here ?

Finaly mostly a "mix" of Systems i the key.... For example i think no AddOn aircraft can tell us in a 1/0 Offset if it is in air or not..... But P3D /FSX can do this with .....
iconQuote:

0366 2Byte INT : Aircraft on ground flag (0=airborne, 1=on ground).



Then we must think about your mechanic..... Do you plan for a Servo that is combined with the lever itself ? So it directly move it ?
Maby in Speadbrakes it is more Profitable to build a "trigger". For example a mechanic where you hookup a expander while "pull" the lever to the armed Position.... And a blocking bolt that "hold" the lever in Armed and not let it swap (by expander or spring power) to the FULL Position. Here your Servo will not move the lever itself.... It will just move or open the blocking bolt. ( I hope you understand)


At Throttle we also got lots of systems.... Mostly here the position index of virtual lever is good. Like this "088C 2 Engine 1 Throttle lever, –4096 to +16384 "
But also here you must check if your AddOn use thi Standard Value OR if it use a own system.


Summary....
Check what posibilitys your Addon give to you..... Think about the mechanic you like to use .... And THEN you can think about formulas and Mobiflight settings
Good Luck !
2020-04-13 16:24
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LarsD.
Posts: 19
The servos should work with the PMDG fleet, i.e. with the 737 NGX and NGXu, 747 and 777.
Do the standard values ​​work there?
How do I find out which values ​​PMDG works with? I couldn't find anything suitable in the offset list.
The servo is supposed to drive the axis via a simple gear. For reasons of space I will unfortunately have to do without an intermediate gear, which is why the motor has to run almost in the opposite direction to the rotation of the levers. How is that programmable? If not, I have to try installing an intermediate gear.

Best regards
Lars
2020-04-13 17:35
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pizman82
Moderator
From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 3527
Supporter
Whatever i think its more tidy to use a motor in correct direction ( electircal or mechanical) .... its also possible to solve this in Software.
Simply work with INTERPOLATION !
If Value for example goes from 0-100 Then enable Interpolation.... In first Line you say 0=100 in second Line you say 100=0
Now all values get recalculated reversed.... So 20 for example result in 80 .
Motor work still the same : Min 0 Max 100..... But th Raw Value now get inverted and do what you need.


About Correct Offset. AGAIN I don´t know.
As Indication for Throttle PMDG support in the NGXu a new Offet that show if Servo Is active. Pretty sure verry usefull in the Logic.

A Offset for Throttle Position "one" of the multiple available in FSUIPC is pretty sure ok. But you must simply test this.

As recommend in the past.
1. Create a new config
2. Create some Output Lines ( maby 5-10 whatveer how many you like to test)
3. Use all Offsets you think they can be usefull here.
Read them as expected in the list but use NO Device !
Start Sim and Mobiflight and oberve the Mobiflight Window.... Specialy the FSUIPC Value Collumn !
Now move your throttle all the time slowly UP and DOWN.... And oberve your Configs.
You pretty sur e find out what Value show for example Input Signal.... What Value show Position of Virtual Throtlle.. What value show for example difference between Idle and Throttle Position and so on.

Finaly after this testings you see what offset work and if multiple options what offset is most comfortable for you !
Good Luck !
2020-04-13 20:24
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LarsD.
Posts: 19
Thanks for the answer.
My big problem is that I have no idea how to write a config myself. Select the device to be used in Mobiflight and assign an offset code to it, I can do it. But writing a confiog out of nowhere and then judging whether it doesn't work because I wrote it wrong or because it can't work, I have no idea.:blush: :blush: :confused:
2020-04-13 21:49
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LarsD.
Posts: 19
Hey, I wanted to submit an interim report. I got the first little servo motor and connected it successfully. I have now programmed it for the Speed ​​Brakes using the FSUIPC internal offsets:
runs normally via the offset "Spoiler Control" and is only activated if 2 requirements are met.
1. The spoilers are armed
2. Offset 0366 responds, so the aircraft is in contact with the ground.
I wanted to install a third requirement, that the servo is only activated when the flaps are extended to at least 25 ° (Boeing 737) to prevent activation during the rejected takeoff, but unfortunately that doesn't work. What value do I have to state? The value that FSUIPC outputs or the output value from the servo? A second question: the servo runs very fast, can I adjust the speed of the servo somewhere or is there no option?

Best regards
Lars
2020-04-16 17:14
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pizman82
Moderator
From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 3527
Supporter
Hi Lars....

Badly i not understand your basic problem....

iconLarsD.:


My big problem is that I have no idea how to write a config myself. Select the device to be used in Mobiflight and assign an offset code to it, I can do it. But writing a confiog out of nowhere and then judging whether it doesn't work because I wrote it wrong or because it can't work, I have no idea.:blush: :blush: :confused:



The Config that controlled the Servo here is the same system as a config that controll a "needle" in a gauge like Altimeter or RMP.
The only difference is that you include a Relais that cutoff the Power to the Motor aslong the system is controlled by hand..... And it activate Power aslong the Servo should controll the lever....
So i not understand why you get scarred.... This is not more difficult as building a simple LED Config finaly !


So all the Logic here is simple.... The Config that controll the servo will work all the time ( No Precondition) and it simply must read a Offset that is simmular to the Position of the Lever in the Virtual Cockpit ( In example for Speedbrake.... If Virtual Offset i 0-16383 then use this Offset and Min 0 Max 163838 and all is fine normaly)

A Second Config ( that controll the Relais) must handle the "condition". This config need a logic like IF Flaps are 25 or above AND Aircraft is on Gorund AND Speedbrakre is Armed.... THEN Power the Servo ELSE Cutoff Servo Power !
Here we can Use 2 Configs and Preconditions.... OR much more easy one Config and Placehodlers and a nice formula !


********
As i wrote abobve.... I can help you..... But at first you must do the research work. You must know what mechanic you use and what Offets you like to use for Motor controll and for Precondition Sitautation when Motor should be active. And THEN i be able to build the config or help you to build it !
Good Luck !
2020-04-16 19:23
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