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pluckas
Posts: 41
Greetings,

I'm in the process of configuring a SISMO AFDS module. The AFDS has both yellow and red illumination for the A/P and A/T outputs, but according to the SISMO data sheet for this module, the yellow LED needs to be "on" for the red LED to show.

So, in order to configure the red led to illuminate, it somehow needs to trigger the yellow event first. Is there a way to do this MobiFlight?

Paul
2018-10-03 09:48
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pizman82
Moderator
From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 2464
Supporter
Hi
If i remember right you work with B737 PMDG right ?? If Yes please in future post your requests in the PMDG Subforum !


Basicly Mobiflight will support a ~5v signal on your Pin while the Output for a LED is ON (High) .
With this logic we need to think about the system.

To help you i must see the data sheet. I can not understand at the moment how we need LED1 at ON to work with LED2. Common 5v Input ? If Yes how they manage a Yellow Only situation ? .... Common GRD... Then it would be no require for Yellow stay On for Red... Relais Shifting ?? So Red is controlled by a relais and use Power and GRD from the Yellow circuit ??

So...

1. Send me a Link or Picture of Data Sheet
2. Tell me if basicly a rewire is possible in this element. If we "realy" have no way to do this in software ( I think this is possible at all) .... Can you simply connect a wire to the Red LED improvisional and "override" the internal wire logic by hand ?
Good Luck !
2018-10-03 14:22
Avatar
pluckas
Posts: 41
Thanks for looking at this.

The data sheet is on this page (scroll down):

https://sismo-soluciones.com/en/modules-idc-interface/45-1390-autopilot-flight-director-system-module-afds.html#/157-i_o_board_compatibility-simcard

Under the information on outputs you'll see section 6.2.2 "Using other control board". This shows what I mean.

Much appreciated,

Paul

PS - I am using PMDG, but I guess this module could be used for any "other" card (ie, Arduino) as advertised. Because I'm using PMDG I have the offsets as:

AT Yellow: 6C0E
AT Red: 6552
AP Yellow: 6C0C
AP Red: 6550

Interestingly, when using the "Red" events, it seems to trigger an audible "click" on the Arduino (like the sound of a relay). Could this be a clue as to how the module is wired?
[Last edited by pluckas, 2018-10-03 16:03]
2018-10-03 15:37
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pizman82
Moderator
From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 2464
Supporter
The Datasheet not include a PCB (electrical shematic) Diagramm i think.... so i can not see the logic. BUT it looks like a relais.

So.... For me it looks like RED Lights have no own Input line.... The have GRD and Power from the Yellow LED and are just cut by a relais.
In that case The yellow must be powerd to let the red be powerd, too.

Your Pinout from Yellow LEDs Arduino configs go to the Yellow one ( GRD to common GRD Pin ... Power to Pin 1 and 3 )
the Red ones go to the Pins 2 and 4 to controll the Relais.

****

Now finaly it is just important to know the function.

for testing... please wire GRD to Arduino GRD. Use 2 Jumper wires on 5v pins.... Then Power your arduino by USB Port and connect one Power line to the yellow Pin....
So Yellow must be light.... then connect the other power wire to the Red Pin ... Normaly Relais should be "click" and red should be light.
Then remove the yellow wire.... Now Both should be off.

If this is correct then we just need to know the Offset Logic.
Is there a situation where only Yellow LED is light ? (I Think so).
Is there a Situation where only RED Led is light ? ( I´m not sure, but i think NO)

If that is also correct then you have no problem.... If the Yellow is basicly ON ...ALWAYS when Red should be ON then your system will work without change it.

If this is wrong and RED must be light standaloane without Yellow ..... then we must think for a special Config logic or you must rework the PCB on the Element. Basicly you could remove the relais and build a simple direct circuit for the Red LED.
Good Luck !
2018-10-03 17:23
Avatar
pluckas
Posts: 41
Thank you again for your help.

I performed the test - and you were 100% right. Red is only illuminated when Yellow is powered, with red alone only activating the relay (ie, the audible click on the board with or without yellow in the loop). Removing the yellow wire immediately shuts off Red illumination but not the relay.

In terms of the offsets red is not standalone - it does not need to be active without yellow powered.

So, how do I configure this in Mobiflight. Is it an option somewhere in the red offset configuration? Activating two offsets simultaneously?

Any help gratefully received.

Paul
[Last edited by pluckas, 2018-10-04 03:33]
2018-10-04 02:49
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pizman82
Moderator
From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 2464
Supporter
Why do you need this logic ?

iconpluckas:


In terms of the offsets red is not standalone - it does not need to be active without yellow powered.



If this is correct you not need a special system that your "Red LED Config" must controll also the Yellow LED. Output same time !

Sure. If Red Offset controll only the relais then it will not light "directly" and will only occure in a On situation if Yellow is ON, too same time.....

BUT. You say already.... In all situation where Red is ON there is also Yellow ON ... same time !!

*****
Summary.
Config 1 read the "Yellow Offset" and controll the Pin on your display for the yellow LED.
Config 2 read the "Red Offset" and controll the Pin of the Relais that will Set the Red LED up to the Yellow circuit.

If Yellow should be active WITHOUT Red then Yellow Offset is 1 and light the LED .... Red Offset is 0 and will disable Relais so Red LED is NOT light.
If Red LED should light then the Red Offset is 1 and will open the Relais.... But as you said... the Yellow Offset is also 1 that time and will light the yellow LED.... So in that moment there is Power on Yellow and Red will use that power and light same time !
Good Luck !
2018-10-04 10:22
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pluckas
Posts: 41
I'm sorry for the additional question, but I'm still confused. (Setting config 2 to read the "red offset" but the pin to the yellow just illuminates yellow).

Currently I have two configs; One for AFDS_AP_Yellow and another called AFDS_AP_Red.

AFDS_AP_Yellow uses the PMDG offset for this function 6C0C.
Value Type = Int, Size = 2.
Under the display tab I have the Pin set to activate the Pin for the yellow led.

AFDS_AP_Red uses the PMDG offset for this function 6550.
Value type = Int, Size = 2
Under the display tab I have Pin set to activate the Pin for the red led, which is not an led but a relay.

Can I trouble you to explain exactly what needs to be done in the configs as per your previous explanation?

Sorry to be so stumped with the logic.

Paul
[Last edited by pluckas, 2018-10-04 16:50]
2018-10-04 13:24
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pizman82
Moderator
From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 2464
Supporter
First: your Settings are Wrong !!

Lets make it a bit more easy to understand for you.

1. The Logic.
Simply "ignore" the fact that Red Light is a Relais ! . For You and for Mobiflight this is no matter here !
If you use a Output config and a LED Device in Mobiflight then MF will set the Pin to HIGH if condition is possible.
So it is basicly no matter what device ( LED or Relais) is set here.... A LED will light if Power is on Pin .... A Relais will "switch" if Power is on Pin.

As we talk above the situation is clear... Red LED is only on if Yellow is on same time... So the Power manegment internal on that PCB is working good.
So simply lets say "hypothetically" the Relais here is a LED and not longer think about that !

***
2. The Issue in Your Config !

iconpluckas:


AFDS_AP_Yellow uses the PMDG offset for this function 6C0C.
Value Type = Int, Size = 2.
....
AFDS_AP_Red uses the PMDG offset for this function 6550.
Value type = Int, Size = 2



That is WRONG !
These are 1 Byte Offsets !

iconQuote:

For example:
Offset : 6550 Typ: INT Size: 2 BYTE x 2 Name: MAIN_annunAP(2) Note : Boolean



As i explane in a lot of topics here... This "x2" means this are TWO indipendent Offsets in a row. ( Always if a device is existing multiple times in the cockpit)
here the FIRST Offset (6550 --- 1 Byte) is the CPT Side AFDS ..... and the SECOND Offset (6551 --- 1 Byte) is the FO Side AFDS

Same system for all Offsets Red and Yellow .... All are "Double" You must always add "+1" in hexadecimal to get the Offsetadress of the "next" one !


It is verry important to split this ! . With 2 Byte you try to read 2 Offsets together... One is 1 other is 0 ... That will occure in wrong results !
Good Luck !
2018-10-04 19:37
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pluckas
Posts: 41
Okay, I've set the Byte size to 1 for all of these configs, but this hasn't changed anything.

I'm not sure if I've given you the right information, but the "power management" of the module only activates RED if yellow is activated. I need to find a way to activate yellow and red at the same time. Two different offsets and two different pins.

But, I'm not sure if this is very efficient (or correct). Here are the current two configs. I'd be happy for you to advise what I'm missing:

Yellow:

FSUIPC
Offset:0x6C0C
Value Type: Int Size in Bytes: 1
Mask value with 0xFF

(All other fields left alone)

Display Settings
Pin: AFDS_AP_Yellow

Pressing "Test" illuminates the AP button with yellow


Red:

FSUIPC
Offset: 0x6550
Value Type: Int Size in Bytes: 1
Mask value with 0xFF

(All other fields left alone)

Display Settings
Pin: AFDS_AP_Red

Pressing "Test" activates the red pin (ie, the relay) but NO illumination.


Paul
2018-10-05 07:03
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pizman82
Moderator
From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 2464
Supporter
Maby we talk about different things.... But i think you now mix up the Testing and the Live Situation) ( i know its difficult if we talk in different languages)

Abouit your "test" Situation !

Here everything is correct as you said....
If you test "Yellow Config" (with the TEST Button in Display Tab of Mobiflight) it will light Yellow LED.
If you test "Red Config (with the TEST Button in Display Tab of Mobiflight) it will "switch" the relais . ( maby you can "hear" it)
But sure.... When you test RED it will just activate the relais but the LED will NOT light cause the yellow is OFF at the moment.
And that is 100% Correct !

Remember my initial question to you some postings ago.... I Ask you if there is a situation while flying-Landing or Ground ( or while using TEST Button on AFDS Panel ) where RED Led must be illuminated Single (without yellow same time) . YOU awnserd to me "NO" and i think so too. Not try it out myself but if i remember rigth in all situations with RED Led ON the Yellow one is ON too.

And thats the key !
When testing the config in MF you just test ONE Config at the moment.. BUT when you run Mobiflight and Simulator this problem is gone cause NOW the LED and Relais is controlled by there individual Offsets.... And BOTH are controlled same time by the simulator.

Finaly..... If our Theory is correct and Yellow LED is always ON aslong Red LED is on .... Then the Offset 6C0C (Yellow) must be 1 ...ALWAYS ..when Offset 6550 (Red) is 1.
So if Yellow is ON now then Red will also be lighted cause it open the relais and get power from the already powered yellow LED.

***
Please.... If i again not understand your problem.... Explane it to me with a example situation.... most detailed as possible,
Good Luck !
2018-10-05 08:14
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pluckas
Posts: 41
I think we are getting there slowly, despite the language differences.

I understand what you mean by testing versus flight sim. I can confirm when running in the sim, the situation is the same. For example. If while standing on the ground I arm the autothrottle, and then disarm it, a red "A/T" will flash in the simulator virtual panel. On my sismo module I can hear the A/T relay "clicking" but there is no red illumination. In other words, flight sim software does not activate yellow and red simultaneously (my fault for not understanding this original question).

So the problem remains - how to do this in MobiFlight. One idea I had was to create two configs for the offset 6552. One config activates the red "relay" pin, and the other activates the yellow pin. I tested this and it works, but not always (at least the software or hardware gets confused occasionally - perhaps power or usb related, I'm not sure).

But I'm sure there's a more elegant solution than creating two configs for the same offset.

Any ideas?
2018-10-05 11:16
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pizman82
Moderator
From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 2464
Supporter
Ok... Now we are close to a solution.

I´m sorry i missunderstand. In case of doin MF Support and of my Job i have no time to fly. ( Last time i use my PMDG for a Trip was 2 Years ago i think ) So i not know/remember correct this function.
Your absolutly right.... IF Red LED must be light "single" ( Without Yellow LED is ON) then it is NOT Possible finaly.

Basicly we can sure build a system ( By config or much more effectiv by a electrical solution) that Yellow is powered always if Red must be On.
So we get sure there is power on the Relais circuit from Yellow to light up Red...
BUT This is not the "perfect" way.... Cause you still know.... Then Yellow is light too.


If you tell me in this disconnect situation ONLY RED is light ... Then i must say. THIS is not possible with your Sismo Tool. Whatever we do ( config or electrical ) Your AFDS Panel is build in a way where Yellow MUST Light aslang RED is ON.

Solutions:
We can make a special double config that will illuminate Yellow ALWAYS when Red must be ON. .......OR
Stephan can build a electrical setup that RED Output Pin will also power Yellow ( Need some diodes and resistors )
BUT in both solutions the Yellow is ON same time like Red.... And this is NOT Realsitic if its different in the Sim

So Perfect Solution:
Rework the Sismo Panel. I not see the shifting plan (Datasheet) of PCB but it is pretty sure verry easy.

The Yellow LED got GRD and Power from the Pins (You connect to your Yellow Config and your Yellow output on Arduino)
The RED LED is controlled by the Relais
I think your Red Input Pin ( From Arduiono to Sismo) is the 5v Line of the "Shifting circuit" of Relais
I also think the "working circuit" of Relais simply use 5v Power from the Yellow Input Pin and give it to the Red LED.
Finaly this Working circuit is close aslong Shifting circuit is powerd.

What we need to do now....
Remove or disconnect the Relais from your Sismo Panel. Then simply Bridge the "shifting Input" with the "working output"
I hope you understand.... Now your Line from Arduino will directly power the Red LED (and not longer the Relais) and your Red LED will be powerd direct from Arduino and not longer from the Yellow LED.

I think this should be possible most comfortable by resolder the relais and set a single jumper bridge on the now empty solderholes between the 2 explaned Points !
EDIT: On Picture i see there are maby 2 controlled lines by relais ( So it will close the Power AND the GRD line paralell.... So you need 2 Jumper wires here ) Stephan must review that i think !





IMPORTANT NOTE .... Maby there is a resistor to reduce Power for the LED .... After rework and not longer use of Yellow circuit for both LED this is missing. So you need on RED Power line a resistor !!! You must set it into the circuit by yourself !


***
STEPHAN... Please check this logic... If need talk to me by Whatsapp. Just confirm this was all correct !
[Last edited by pizman82, 2018-10-05 16:14]
Good Luck !
2018-10-05 15:53
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pluckas
Posts: 41
Thanks for helping to get to the bottom of this.

I've been trying "double configs", and although it appears promising, the effect is somewhat inconsistent (eg, the "red" works, but then the yellow not, etc.).

I don't think I'll starting hacking the new module just yet (mainly because subtle operation of the ADFS module is not critical at this point), but I do appreciate your solutions.

Paul
2018-10-05 16:33
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pizman82
Moderator
From: ETSI, Germany
Posts: 2464
Supporter
For "Double Config" i recommend the follow system:

Config 1 : "Red LED" (Device RED Led)
Use here your basic system like now... No Preconditions needed.
This Config will simply controll the Relais. Value is normaly 1 if ON or 0 if OFF

Config 2 : " Yellow LED Normal" (Device Yellow LED )
Use here your basic system also like before . Only Add a Precondition " Only work IF "Red LED Config" value = 0
So this config will work always aslong RED is not active in Sim.... It will simply show the status of Yellow LED like now.

Config 3 :"Yellow LED Rework" (Device is the SAME LED (pin) like in the normal Config)
Use here a Offset of your choice (or simply again the same like for the original Yellow Config... no matter)
Use TRANSFORM and enter "1" here... We like to set value ALWAYS to ON so we use 1 as value (whatever it is 0 in real)
USe Precondition here.... Only work IF "Red LED Config" value=1

Result:
Our Red config controll simply the Relais.
Our "normal Yellow Config" will controll yellow LED in case of Sim Status .... BUT ONLY aslong RED is OFF
If RED is ON then our precondition system DISABLE the Normal Config and activate the "Rework" Config
And NOW in case of our Transform this config will light Yellow aslong RED is 1 (ON) .... Whatever Yellow is normaly not light in Sim and its original value is 0.
And as we find out.... If Yellow is light then Red will light, too when relais is powerd.

AGAIN:
This will work.... BUT Its simply not realistic if in Sim and Real B737 the Light is OFF normaly.
Decide yourself if this solution is OK for you..... If not wait for Stephans Reply about the Reworking of Sismo PCB.
Good Luck !
2018-10-05 16:53
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StephanHo
From: EDDG, Germany
Posts: 1260
Supporter
Since I would first look at the PCB.

The following signals must be measurable on the pins of the socket P2-OUT:

Pin 1 LED AP ORANGE
Pin 2 LED AP RED
Pin 3 LED AT ORANGE
Pin 4 LED AT RED

Voltage changes must occur at these pins of the socket when the corresponding offset changes state

In the default state, the relays both remain passive. That is, the ORANGE LEDs on both the AP and AT lights when driven at the correct offset.

If the yellow AP PRST LED flashes, this must be measurable at pin 1 of the P2-OUT socket (offset 0x6C0C).
This also applies to the yellow AT PRST LED, which is controlled via pin 3 of the P2-OUT socket (offset 0x6C0E).
The relays should remain passive. For the red LEDs applies Offset 0x6550 (AP) and Offset 0x6552 (AT)

Let's look at the relays: The relay pins are connected as follows (counting as for the sockets)
REL AP
Pin 1 GND
Pin 2 + 5V (switched)
Pin 3 GND
Pin 4 GND
Pin 5 OUT 1 (yellow)
Pin 6 OUT 2 (yellow)
Pin 7 OUT 1 (red)
Pin 8 OUT 2 (red)

The relay REL AT is wired identically.

Thus, if the yellow LEDs are lit, GND should be passed to the LEDs via pin 3 and pin 5 (and pin 4 and pin 6) on the relays.
Now, if the red LEDs are lit, the corresponding relay energizes and pins 3 and 7 (and pin 4 and pin 8) should receive GND and the LED should light. The signal thus goes from pin 2 (P2-OUT AP RED) via the relay pin 3/4 and pin 7/8 to the LED.
For AT as well via pin 4 (P2-OUT AT RED) via relay REL AT.
Which of the paths from the relay switches the LED can not be read from the manual or the PCB.

Under no circumstances should the AFDS yellow and red at AP or AT light up at the same time. Red at AP and yellow at AT is allowed.

You should investigate these signal paths with a measuring instrument and note when and on which line which signal lies.

If all else fails, there is still the "brutally" method:
Your pins are coming to P2-OUT directly from the MEGA. From here you can connect the LEDs directly to a wire (do not forget the resistor !!) You can then unsolder the relays, for safety's sake the LEDs too.
But this should be the ultima ratio.

So please try to track the signal path in unswitched state (yellow LED) and make yourself the necessary notes and then you do the same in switched state (red LED).

Before we tinker here any config, we should first check the signal paths on the hardware side. If it works for others, it will logically work for you as well.

If we have these results, we'll see.
Grüße,
Stephan
2018-10-05 22:49
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